--- Log opened Sun Dec 04 00:00:39 2005
00:07 >> #punt JOIN OllyM (n=OllyM@84.12.255.21)
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00:39 >> dpatton is now known as dpatton_away
01:30 >> Bull_[UK] is now known as Bull_[Zzz]
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09:09 >> piotr`momir is now known as piotr`
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10:32 < mashi> Occasionally I get Exception has been thrown by the target of an invocation.
10:33 < mashi> when selecting from main menu.  Failing code:
10:33 < mashi> this.imageList.ImageStream = ((System.Windows.Forms.ImageListStreamer)(resources.GetObject("imageList.ImageStream")));
10:35 >> #punt JOIN piotr` (n=Jean_FIL@AOrleans-152-1-39-250.w86-192.abo.wanadoo.fr)
11:04 >> #punt JOIN mazop (n=mazop@dsl-70-77.utaonline.at)
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15:06 >> #punt PART mazop (n=mazop@dsl-70-77.utaonline.at) ()
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17:03 < dpatton> piotr`: here?
17:04 < dpatton> mashi: here?
17:05 < mashi> yes!
17:05 < dpatton> I just wanted to mention some changes I was thinking of, in relation to the translations
17:06 < mashi> you are going to make us do it all over again? ;)
17:06 < dpatton> 1) unless someone has a better idea, keep using \Punt\languages as the directory
17:08 < dpatton> 2) have different versions of files be 'managed' by what 'location' they are in - for example, maybe all the PO files for 1.4.0beta1 are in a ZIP file with "1.4.0beta1" in it's name, or are in CVS on a "1.4.0beta1" branch, etc
17:09 < dpatton> 2) In other words, the 'version number' wouldn't be apparent from the file's name - however, PO files DO have the version in their header
17:10 < _adam_gfx> is ZIP designed to make it smaller or just to keep all of version X in a single chunk?
17:11 < dpatton> 3) change the naming of the DLL files to 'match' how PO files are named:  de.Punt.po -> de.Punt.dll, rather than the current de.Punt.po -> \de\Punt.resources.dll
17:12 < dpatton> 4) put all language DLL files into \Punt\languages, rather than into separate directories under \languages
17:13 < dpatton> any comments/suggestion?
17:15 < dpatton> _adam_gfx: I was just referring to using a ZIP as one way to 'group all of version X together', however, the files might be 'managed' via CVS, so a ZIP might just be one way they are made available for download
17:15 < piotr`> I'm not familiair with all those ... concerns :)
17:15 < piotr`> ~familiar
17:16 < mashi> de.Punt.po or Punt.de.po ?
17:16 < dpatton> hi piotr` :-)
17:17 < piotr`> hi
17:17 < mashi> hi piotr`!  What is the need for 2) ?
17:18 < piotr`> what do you mean ?
17:18 < mashi> maybe I should have put it on 2 lines? ;)
17:18 < mashi> why do we need version numbers on language files if we don't need them on other files (source, bitmaps etc)?
17:19 < mashi> couldn't we just commit new versions over the old?
17:19 < piotr`> am I to answer that question ? =)
17:19 < mashi> I didn't mean to ask just you
17:20 < piotr`> the main thing is that I have a very hard time understanding all those programming/cvs/whatever related issues
17:20 >> Bull_[Zzz] is now known as Bull_[UK]
17:21 < _adam_gfx> just to let you know what we did on my large project, we made a /languages at the 'root' of the app (where the EXE lived) had a locale specific directory /es or /es-foo then had a directory structure under that that mimiced the old single language version where needed (we had /video /flash /audio /text) and our version control system let us have a "view" of each language stream as a flatter directory structure (so we had a es or es-foo
17:21 < dpatton> I was thinking of de.Punt.po for two reasons: (A) seemed like a logical extension to how gettext names it's PO file(e.g. de.po, fr.po, etc)  (B) if we end up with multiple 'types' of language files in \languages, such as for Punt itself and for Addons, it would group similar language files together in a listing(e.g. de.Addons.dll, de.Punt.dll)
17:21 < _adam_gfx> "ooops its missing way"
17:23 < dpatton> re (2) - it's an issue for me, because so far, I've been the only person who is 'managing' the multiple versions of the POT/PO/DLL files, and I've been doing it by keeping them is separate directories for different versions - so, I'm just really saying how it's currently being done
17:26 < dpatton> mashi: re "commit new versions over the old" - it's not that simple - say we have fr.Punt.po, for Punt 1.4.0, and then poitr does a "new version", just to fix one typo in one translated message - if we are using CVS, then yes, it should be 'committed over the old' PO file, but that's not the same as doing a fr.Punt.po file for Punt 1.4.1
17:27 < dpatton> The botton line re (2) is that if you see a file "
17:27 < dpatton> oops
17:29 < dpatton> The bottom line re (2) is that if you see a file "fr.Punt.po", you wouldn't know which Punt version it is for without either looking inside the file, or knowing "where it belongs", or based on where it is when you are looking at it(e.g. name of the ZIP file it's in, which CVS branch it's in)
17:30 < mashi> I don't see how this is any different than if you change a language string inside a source file?
17:30 < mashi> CVS takes care of it?
17:31 < dpatton> well, so far, we aren't using CVS for POT/PO/DLL files :-)
17:31 < mashi> ok :)
17:32 < dpatton> even if we were, there might need to be multiple versions of fr.Punt.po - one for each released version of Punt, and one for the current CVS HEAD version of Punt
17:33 < mashi> yes, and branching the tree on each release would solve that problem?
17:34 < mashi> and/but
17:34 < dpatton> so, say there is a mistake in the Norwegian translation of one string - it may need to be fixed in both the PO file for the current released version, and for the version for CVS HEAD
17:36 < dpatton> and, to make the fixed version available for download, for people running the current released version, there might be "no.1.4.0alpha1.zip", but inside that file is no.Punt.dll, and you can't tell what version it is for(without the context of what ZIP file it's in)
17:38 < dpatton> I'm just saying that if I do it the way I outlined, without the context of ZIP/CVS/folder/etc you wouldn't be able to know the version of a de.Punt.dll file, and for PO files, you wouldn't know the version without looking inside the file
17:40 < mashi> ok.. makes sense
17:41 < dpatton> I don't see any problems if we are using CVS - it's only the issue of "files without version numbers" outside of CVS that I wonder about
17:44 < dpatton> _adam_gfx: what was the advantage of your example of \languages\es\audio\foo.file and \languages\es\video\foo.file compared to \languages\es.audio.foo.file and \languages\ex.video.foo.file?
17:46 < mashi> no, we have enough slashes... ;)
17:47 < mashi> go ahead with the plan Dave, after we see it we might have stronger opinions and start complaining about it.. :-P
17:47 < mashi> seriously it sounds good to me
17:50 < _adam_gfx> the advantage of our example was that we could dynamically add/remove languages for a given piece of training (the order was locale specific es-VN then es then English)
17:52 < _adam_gfx> and the choices whould magic`ally appear in our menus, it was also easy for the people building content for langauge X to see what was missing (file count of EN vs file count of target language directory)
17:52 < dpatton> _adam_gfx: ok, thanks - when using gettext, other than the need to restart Punt to take effect, new languages could be added/removed simply by adding/removing the DLL files
17:53 < _adam_gfx> yeah, the whole starting of the EXE sets the locale in .NET is annoying
17:54 < _adam_gfx> i dont even know if you can switch languages dynamicsally in .NET, i guess all the threads get set eventually
17:56 < dpatton> _adam_gfx: I think that on a system with the MUI pack, dynamic language switching will work, IF the application is written to support it - on non-MUI systems, there's no way to (properly) switch languages in Windows
17:59 < _adam_gfx> that how I know it is possible, IE is MUI aware, i am just curious how when you set the main threads locale, 1) can you change it 2) how fast does it propigate?
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18:05 < dpatton> _adam_gfx: MUI sets CurrentUICulture, so if your app uses that dynamically, then the MUI change would be immediate, whether or not you are talking about threads?
18:09 < _adam_gfx> i was thinking about ThreadPools that are sitting around, i guess it has to do it since ASP.NET keys off the user agent and ASP.NET processes are pooled
18:21 < mashi> did you see this new globe? http://www.volvooceanrace.org/virtualspectator/index.aspx?bhcp=1
18:30 >> dpatton is now known as dpatton_away
18:35 >> #punt JOIN mazop (n=mazop@M1538P019.adsl.highway.telekom.at)
18:50 < dpatton_away> mazop: Hi - I'll be back in a while, but let me know if you have any comments re the discussion in here from about 2 hours ago(i.e. it's in the logs)
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21:41 < mazop> 18:21 < mashi> did you see this new globe? http://www.volvooceanrace.org/virtualspectator/index.aspx?bhcp=1
21:41 < mazop> :-D
21:41 < mazop> now i also wann get animated waves in Punt ;)
21:43 < mazop> dave: commend-sounds goot to me. mashi already said all about "17:47 < mashi> go ahead with the plan Dave, after we see it we might have stronger opinions and start complaining about it.. :-P"
21:44 < mazop> goot=good
21:44 < dpatton> mazop: OK :-)
21:44 < mazop> ahhh....you here
21:44 < dpatton> "goot" is OK - I can understand a bit of mazop's German ;-)
21:44 < mazop> the guy i deliverd the notebook tody is now happy with Punt ;)
21:45 < mazop> gut=good in german
21:45 < mazop> thanks to mashi ;) he helped me out with this error ;)
21:46 < dpatton> is he going to do a translation? If so, he should send an email(after joining) to  Punt-globalization
21:46 < dpatton> what error?
21:47 < mazop> i think now he will just play some days with the notebook.....fooling arround with it i guess...
21:47 < mazop> http://www.dynagis.net/punt-temp/punt-error01.jpg
21:47 < mazop> the error i got
21:48 < dpatton> wrong version of Managed DirectX?
21:48 < mazop> same notebook than mine....same setup ... but didnt run....
21:48 < mazop> same MDX installed on both....
21:49 < mazop> but stil had to copy-over the Microsoft.DirectX.dll, Microsoft.DirectX.Direct3D.dll, Microsoft.DirectX.Direct3DX.dll
21:50 < mazop> and.... it was a self-compiled version...so... :P
21:50 < dpatton> that means that his system didn't have the same version(s) of MDX as your system
21:51 < mazop> maybe because on my machine there is an history of different versions of MDX ?
21:52 < mazop> i think on the 'error-machine' i only installed the last (october i guess)...
21:53 < mazop> and even tried it with SDK too ....
21:53 < mazop> shouldnt it run with last MDX anyway ?
21:54 < dpatton> yes - if only the Oct 2005 MDX was installed on his machine, then Punt wouldn't run, because it (currently) requires an older version
21:57 < mazop> anyway. i didnt know, and now i know - and  thats good ;)
21:59 < mazop> ok... i am off .  see you
21:59 >> #punt PART mazop (n=mazop@dsl-70-77.utaonline.at) ()
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 05 00:00:40 2005